HID Connects Podcast Season 2 Episode 2: What's Workplace Experience Got to Do With It?
Welcome to HID Connects!
HID Connects is a podcast designed to bring you the latest news and trends in the security space. Our goal is to not only equip you with information and best practices, but also open new conversations on topics shaping our industry.
Joining us for the second episode of season two are Thru Shivakumar, CEO and co-founder of Cohesion and HID’s very own Troy Johnson, Director of Strategic Alliances for North America. They will explore the important question: What’s workplace experience got to do with it?
Take a minute to listen below. And while you’re at it, be sure to subscribe to receive future episodes.
Here is a transcript if you’d like to read along:
Matt Winn
Hello, everyone. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Whatever time it is, and wherever in the world you may be. My name is Matt Winn, your podcast host and resident secure identities nerd. Welcome back to yet another episode of the HID Connects podcast.
Today we're going to be talking about security systems and their impact on the workplace and people’s experience, with a focus on commercial real estate. Now, this is a buzzing topic right now as the corporate world still grapples with return to office/hybrid work, and of course what that means for their buildings and facilities. So to help us cover these trends and related technologies, I'm excited to be joined in the studio by two expert guests.
First, we have Thru Shivakumar, CEO and Co-Founder of Cohesion, as well as HID’s very own Troy Johnston, Director of Strategic Alliances on our mobile team.
So let's start with intros. Thru, thank you so much for joining us at HID headquarters. Mind saying hello and telling us a little bit about yourself and Cohesion?
Thru Shivakumar
Sure. Hi, everyone. I'm very excited to be here, so thanks for having me.
Like you said, I'm the CEO and Co-Founder of Cohesion. It's a smart building software platform that started about five years ago. We're a spin-off technology from a mechanical engineering firm. And what we do, the crux of it, is to look at the entirety of the building ecosystem, right? So we look at security systems, building automation systems and HVAC. We look at all of the different kinds of technologies and systems that are in the building, and we unify them into a single platform so that the end users — including tenants, residents and occupants of buildings — can have a better experience inside of buildings.
Then the owners and the operators behind the scenes can get data and they can automate actions back into the building systems themselves. So it's a kind of fully smart building ecosystem, as you know it!
Matt Winn
Very good, smart building driven by very smart people.
Thru Shivakumar
That’s our tagline!
Matt Winn
Is it really?
Thru Shivakumar
No, but it could be.
Matt Winn
Okay. I want a royalty for that if you use it. That's awesome. Thank you so much for joining us. Super excited to have you. And Troy, I mean, you're in these four walls all the time, but please introduce yourself as well. Tell us about you and what you do here at HID.
Troy Johnston
Sure. So, Director of Strategic Alliances for North America. I primarily work with technology companies like Cohesion. I spend a lot of time with the teams on sales-orientated focus implementation and again, primarily focusing on the mobile space.
Matt Winn
Very good. Glad to have you and welcome to Austin. You've relocated relatively recently or maybe not too long ago. When did you move?
Troy Johnston
A couple of months ago. Adjusting but loving it.
Matt Winn
Well, I'm glad that you survived the summer — sorry about that — just in general, as humans. Awesome. So now that you know our guests, let's dive into this episode's burning question, which is inspired by the legendary Tina Turner, and that is security in commercial real estate. What's workplace experience got to do with that?
Okay. So Thru, first question is for you. For those who may be unfamiliar with the space, how do you define commercial real estate? How do you define smart buildings? And kind of describe the different stakeholders who might be engaging in this type of environment?
Thru Shivakumar
That is a very good question. So it's a very complex landscape, but it's really not, at the end of the day. So we've kind of taken this whole; we've looked at everything to say what are buildings and what's commercial real estate.
Well, buildings are the structures. And so whether it's commercial real estate or corporate real estate or any other type of asset, you've got buildings behind it. So from a buildings perspective, what we have — we'll start with commercial real estate. Commercial real estate is owned by a landlord and they have different people that kind of use the buildings themselves. So those people — the tenants — are corporate real estate. We look at two different things — commercial real estate and corporate real estate — as the two big buyers of technology. And you've got a whole host of other people that are in the ecosystem like partners and building systems and vendors and various other folks that play in the system.
But I think what we'll talk about today is commercial real estate and corporate real estate, and we'll focus on those two. So if we look at commercial real estate, you look at REITs, you look at kind of large landlords, you look at both — could be public or private. And what we have there is people who then have operators to run their buildings. On the commercial real estate side, you're usually talking about big buildings or big portfolios that have different people who occupy their buildings. So when we think about commercial real estate, you're thinking about tenants. We hear the word “tenant experience.” Really, that's the people who occupy buildings in that instance — it’s really about the tenant experience.
Now, if we switch over to corporate real estate — corporate real estate is like, let's say it's Google or Apple, right? They've got a lot of real estate in the world. And so that real estate has employee experience. So we call it “workplace experience.” You kind of have tenant experience and workplace experience. I like to think about all of it as one, called the “human experience” or “people experience.”
So hopefully that kind of, you know, it doesn't clarify a ton yet, but as we get deeper into it, it will become more clear.
Troy Johnston
I'm so glad you defined that, though, because I think it's a big misconception like that. The terms are bantered around interchangeably all the time. Commercial, corporate thinking is one and the same thing and it's not. Really glad you clarified that for your audience.
Matt Winn
Absolutely. So within that, with some of the different stakeholders — we talked about landlords, we've talked about tenants, we've talked about the humans who are working within the buildings in the facility. So Troy, tell us a little bit more about these individual pockets of groups within the categories, and what are some of their pain points and expectations as it relates to a building experience, a workplace experience, a human experience?
Troy Johnston
Well, I think the tenant experience manager in their primary role — if you go back to the commercial side — is, you know, the minute you walk into that asset, how is it perceived? How do I feel as I move in and around the asset and go up and see the tenants, e.g., the culprits? Again, what does my experience look like? So the focus really in my mind over the years having been working with them is how do I feel when I walk into that building? What is my experience? Do I walk out feeling great and going, “Wow, that's the big focus on the tenant experience managers.”
Now we’re going to the workplace, you know, they've got a different agenda, right? They're trying to manage their employees going in and out of a single asset, sometimes multiple assets. How do we do this? What is the most efficient way to do that?
Matt Winn
Thru, anything you want to add to that?
Thru Shivakumar
I think the workplace experience that we're looking at, really takes culture into the realm of the workplace. So, spaces, culture, all of that is intertwined in the workplace experience. How people use the space inside of their buildings and then how they move from office to office. So global traveling employees, right? Let's just say you were going to an office in Germany; let's say you had a German office. In today's kind of world, you'd probably have to notify your admin or somebody has to notify the office manager over in the German office. They have to then print a key card or get you set up in a visitor management system. And it's a very manual process. But that idea now, with hybrid work and the traveling employee, people are more mobile and they need the ability to go from office to office. So that workplace experience is all about that mobility and about having the connectedness of the offices and the people.
So you're looking at how do you engage with spaces more efficiently when you come into the office. How do you collaborate more? How do you have that experience around the culture of how you're going to work today? Whereas on the commercial side, right, it's about how do you make the place for different tenants to have the best experience?
When you have one property manager managing a building and you've got a staff of maybe 5 to 15, how does that serve 2000 people who are supposed to be in the building? So it's a different use case as Troy kind of said, where you have to think about the two different use cases. The underlying technology is actually the same. So it's really about how do you then morph all of that technology into different workplace or tenant experience type of applications.
Matt Winn
Very interesting. I want to take a step back a minute and just reflect on personal experience. And the key word here is experience. Ten years ago, no one seemed to really care about the employee experience within a building.
People didn't really seem to think or talk too much about the experience for tenants within commercial real estate or within a specific skyscraper, for example. But a lot of things have changed over the past, especially these past three years. So Thru, I want to start with you. Let's talk about COVID and its impact in this space and how have things changed and what adjustments are we seeing after the fact?
Thru Shivakumar
All right. Let's just start with what's wrong with the industry. First, we're going to go there. So I think the industry of real estate has always been a very reactive industry in general. They've never been really proactive about the changes that are coming. And if we think about what COVID did, it accelerated a digital revolution.
People were always going to go hybrid. So it wasn't COVID that created it, it was actually just timing. Right then the timing of COVID affected everyone. It accelerated everyone working from home, and then it proved that that model could actually work because we were in it for three years. And so you can't go back. Anybody who thinks that we're going to go back to the old normal is, in my opinion, just very out of touch with reality.
And I think that buildings are going to come. Buildings are back, right, but they're not back to what they were before because the use of space is changing. Right. What's the purpose of space? That's something that people are really grappling with. And I think that COVID as it accelerated everything for that digital transformation, didn't really change how buildings operate.
So I think we've got a pretty big mess right now in terms of the operation, the systems, the experience. And I think we have a lot of work to do there. In 2008, right, when the last Great Recession occurred, that was another real estate recession. Right. We didn't really foresee that happening. We don't foresee climate change in the regulatory aspects that are going to come. It's the next one. People aren't really proactively doing things. Some people are — can't say everyone is — but I think that it's a very reactive industry. And I do think that we have to really be thinking about how can we actually be proactive so that it doesn't become another crisis or a disaster.
I was reading this article this morning about how 70% of Gen Z and millennials are now all mobile/digital-first. That's our end consumer, right? That's who we actually have to respond to. But that's not who we're building these experiences for. We're saying come back to offices, do what you used to do. And we're doing a disservice to the end consumer itself.
Troy Johnston
I agree. I mean, I think during COVID and still today, a lot of people are throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks, right? There's a lot of pressure on them to implement technology and transform a workplace, but there's not a lot of historical data we can use, right?
So it's like, let's try this, let's try that, and see what works. And to your point, maybe a little more short term, you know, the people signing the leases aren't Gen Zers right yet. But, take a longer term view and look at what's going to happen in the next five, 10, 15 years, not necessarily what's happening today. So yeah, it is a constant state of churn, I think, at the moment.
Thru Shivakumar
I had an interesting customer. We were pitching a prospect, and the head of real estate — this is the corporate side of it — was probably younger, and she had talked about how she could not stand the fact that somebody greeted her at 7 AM at the base of the building.
Now, flip that script. Right. And we talk about the commercial landlord and the operators. They're starting to staff a building so that people say, “Hello, Mr. Johnston, welcome to the building.” Millennials and Gen Z people do not want to have that interaction with building staff. There is a massive disconnect again, and there's this whole element of when do you bring hospitality into buildings. But hospitality brought in technology way sooner, right? So hospitality had things like the shade controls and lighting controls way, way sooner than anybody else did. And so I think we're bringing the wrong elements of hospitality into buildings and offices. I think that there are a lot of things that we've got to do better.
Matt Winn
I think COVID probably just made people antisocial too, so that may be a different aspect of it as well.
So, Troy, I want to take this one to you, kind of bridging some of these ideas together. We've got tenant workplace experience, but we also have buildings that are not as full as they used to be. How do we allow for these experiences or technologies that enable these experiences? How do they marry into monetization? So let's talk about that from a business model perspective.
Troy Johnston
I think there are two ways you can look at it from our perspective. You know, you're looking at mobile access, right? How do we move people in and out of these assets, in isolation or mass? And how do we get more data out of a building? So there's different solutions around occupancy giving. I think about landlords, fund managers, you know, and the metrics they need, the information they need to make an informed decision. To your point that the buildings are not full at the moment or the occupancy is sparse or it's quite random, how do we get useful facts and information to pass on to people to make those decisions? So that's kind of where we are at the moment in the market.
Matt Winn
Thru, what are your thoughts?
Thru Shivakumar
I think buildings, yes, aren't as occupied as before, but on certain days they are.
So I think we've got to think about how we look at occupancy rate, which it may not be used five days a week, 40 hours a week. Right. But one day can have 90% occupancy because people are coming into the buildings. So I think how we evaluate how space is used is still to be determined. And I think there are a lot of monetization opportunities there, which is the use of space and the purpose of space.
And then how do you get people in and out of space? We have security as part of our platform, but it's one part of our platform and a pretty major part of our platform. But the ability to manage those users, the visitors, the vendors, the people that work there, everything — it’s an opportunity to make that an easier process so that we can move people in and out of space and have that seamless access.
Matt Winn
I want to dive into that a little bit deeper. So you mentioned the opportunities. What are some of those data points that you think would lead to some of those decisions that drive the opportunities to help with this problem that you're seeing? What are some of the gaps that may be out there that some of our listeners in the space may not know about? And what do you see as how they can leverage that for the good?
Thru Shivakumar
I think there are two things. We look at how space is used and how many people come in. So you've kind of got two factors of data that you can look at and obviously how space is used. If you look at an office building, you've got collaboration rooms, you've got meeting rooms, you've got offices, desks.
You got to figure out what you want to look into and lean into, right? I think it's looking, understanding and baselining what is actually being used and then figuring out with the design folks and the architects, how do you actually make that to be a more collaborative space? So then you have to go through a workplace design kind of exercise to say how can space be leveraged to accommodate the needs of what this new working world looks like?
It's not what's coming, it's actually here and bringing people back. Why are people struggling with bringing folks back to the buildings? It's because it's not a great experience, right? People don't want to sit in a sterile desk environment where nobody talks to one another. Right? It's a problem. But if you can encourage collaboration, you give them some free food, you give them free booze, you know, people will actually come back because there's something to come back for. But to just come and sit at your computer, it’s not really the experience that they want. So then if you kind of think about that, I think the baseline thing is a big thing because you have a lot of companies, and a lot of it's mostly on the company side, the corporate side, right?
They have a lot of real estate that they don't know what to do with. You've got folks coming in from a design perspective or consulting standpoint where they say, let's survey, you know, let's survey 5% of the real estate, and then we can extrapolate that and see how people are using the spaces and just assume it. But different countries, different locations, different markets, all of them use space differently.
It’s the culture of a city. It's the culture of a place. Those all are different. So you really have to look at real-time data of how the space is being used, the building first, and then you can start to say, okay, let's look at the conference rooms, which ones are being used, which ones aren't.
Then you get into space utilization versus occupancy, and those are two things that people kind of confuse, I think, in the market. And you just have to figure out what does that strategy look like? I think that what people don't realize is there's a lot of data inside of the systems like access control and what those access control systems have. We’ve heard about bad swipes, but the data on how it's collected isn't always clean. And so you need that cleaning kind of software and ability to look at how many people are in that space and who they are. Right. And a lot of people are worried about that. But it's more about understanding the department and the business unit and who's coming in the spaces and who needs spaces.
Matt Winn
Very good. Troy?
Troy Johnston
Yeah, I completely agree, I think it's the lack of data or being able to interpret it correctly. I was looking at a report the other day that was listing office buildings and they were saying they're 70 or 80% leased. But in the back of my mind, I'm looking at what is the occupancy as an example, right? Because we've got a contract doesn't mean anyone's actually using the building. Someone's paying for the space, but who's actually going in and out of it? And to further dive down, how are they utilizing that space, you know? Is it a collaborative environment? I know one of the consulting firms I used to work with did studies on people in this space in the office.
You know, the importance of having that pot plant, right, or having that sense of community and well-being. And I think this is what people are starting to drill down into. Finally, simply saying that, you know, we're 80% leased to 80% occupied — it's really not giving a true sense of what the building's being utilized for.
Matt Winn
And to your point earlier, Thru. Troy, how does access control play into this larger ecosystem?
Troy Johnston
We're talking about experience, and people often associate access control with: I put my card against a box, it goes beep, and the door opens. So how do we take that and move it into this more experience-based environment? So long question short, what's the role of access control in this realm?
And the other thing is, it's a foundational layer from a technology point, right? It's in all buildings or most buildings. It's usually integrated into different touchpoints in a building. And it's like, how do we use that? For us, obviously, the logical choice is mobile access. You know, the efficiencies around, again, getting people into and out of that building, getting into their touch points, but then using applications as well to get additional data metrics out of that.
Right? It really depends. I think, people need to look at the building, how it's being utilized, get that baseline data, and then start to make some decisions based around that. What about goals? Are we trying to streamline a collaborative environment? Do we want a mass onboarding and offboarding? People really need to have those deeper conversations.
Thru Shivakumar
I also think, behind all of this is like the actual security element, right? Are the right people in the right spaces? And if not, and if there's something that's wrong with it, we know how to audit that back. Right. Those are all just fundamentally right behind everything. So we've got the experience side and then we've got the technology and we've got the security elements of it.
Matt Winn
Very well said. Okay, let's go higher level again. We talked about the impact of COVID and the industry as a whole, and then being reactive now to how to be more proactive. What's next Thru; what trends are you seeing in the space? What's happening now, and what does the future look like to you?
Thru Shivakumar
That's a $1,000,000 question, I think. I think it's just going to be the flexibility of the user space. First off, it's going to be a very data-driven environment, and people are still understanding how to use data to then make decisions. I think you're going to see a lot of earnings reports coming out of, you know, Q4, Q1 on paper, companies saying that real estate is a non-core part of their business operations and they're going to start cutting costs. I think it's going to happen.
That's going to really put an effect on the industry. That said, I do think that people want to come back to spaces. They want to use spaces, and the trends are they want it to be digital. So again, 70% of people want digital-first applications, I think 70% of under 40 — it's like 40, 41 is millennial right now — I think about 70% of that generation, which makes up 67% of the demographics of our office using employees, want to use 100% mobile applications, right? That's just their way of working. We need to really listen to that. So, again, people don't want to send emails. If they spill a coffee, they want to put in a work ticket into an application, a mobile app. They don't want to talk to people. So we have to understand, you know, when and where people want to speak to humans. When and where are they going to be better served having a mobile application? I think the ease of access, even on mobile access being the foundation, because if you look at how people use apps, there's got to be a hook.
There are so many apps on the market and that hook is you have to use it too. You know, you have to use it to access space because that security layer is there. And I think you know, there is a lot of technology — Bluetooth, and now we're getting NFC, we're getting into a digital wallet. I definitely think that that adoption is going to be huge on everything. Digital first is going to be the only way forward in physical spaces. But it's a very hard thing for people to grasp.
Matt Winn
It seems sci-fi, but it's already here. So it's like to your point — stop reacting, be more proactive. I'm going to come back to that question in a second. But Troy, same question to you. Trends — what's next?
Thru Shivakumar
Wait, really quick. I have to interrupt. You said sci-fi; my new CMO uses the word. It's like we're the Jetsons, like that's where we're going. It’s like we're here, right.
Matt Winn
Yeah, that's right. I'm still waiting for my flying car and that just hasn't happened yet. But point taken.
Thru Shivakumar
Totally. Just get on the drone when they get big enough.
Matt Winn
Lose some weight too. Troy, same question to you, what's next?
Troy Johnston
From my perspective, I see two patterns emerging in the digital physical access space, right? I see companies still as end users are coming forth and saying, “We want to get mobile, right? We know the benefits around that — efficiency, sustainability, you know what I mean? Cards? Yeah, we're going mobile,” and that's all they want, right? So there's one school of end users that just want digital access; we know what all the benefits are and that's it. And then there's the other path, you know, where we want to invest in this, but what else can we do with it? Right?
So to me, there are two distinct paths. Before it was all-in-one. It was like, we're going to build the application, we're going to have the ability to layer technology into that application. That's going to be the foundation, and obviously mobile access will be part of that. But now I see two distinct paths, one to just one digital access and others that want that foundation and long term we can layer it. I don't see either as a bad thing, to be honest. I mean, the goal is to go digital, but there are two different thought tracks there.
Thru Shivakumar
I think the underlying piece of all of this is having integrations. All of the technology needs to talk to one another. So integrations are going to be the key in terms of trends, like it's not going away. People are going to have to play nice in the sandbox. And it's like 85% of the industry's there, correct?
Troy Johnston
Yep. Agreed. And it's a really valid point. Without integrations, none of this works efficiently. Yeah, that's the point. If there's any admin burden attributed to any of this tech, forget it, it's over. If people have to hit two or three more buttons than what they do, then it's over. So the integrations enable that, right?
Thru Shivakumar
Exactly.
Matt Winn
That's a really good segue. So my final question in terms of the meat of this conversation is: knowing that the industry may be more reactive than they could or should be, and knowing that the Jetsons are here and we just need to take advantage of it, and knowing that digital is here to stay and will only grow, Thru, I'll start with you — what advice do you have for those who are looking to just start on this journey?
Thru Shivakumar
I think put it in an outcomes-first approach. What are the outcomes that you want to achieve? Is it truly experience? Do you want adoption? Do you want usage? What are those end metrics? And like Troy was saying, there are two different paths that people take and within that there are probably like 100 different paths.
So chart out the outcome side of what you want. Then go in and take a real strategic approach. Do not buy the marketing hype of certain applications, right? Dig deep into the technology side, do technological due diligence on integrations because as we said, no building is the same; no building system is the same. And so that integration capability has to be there across anything that you're going to do in buildings and spaces, because you could have one system in one building and another system in another office and all of that just has to talk to one another.
So really dig deep on the technology stack and what and how it can support the different systems and then do have a project manager on the side of the customer where they understand that they have to actually project manage this. This is a big change management exercise and people have to be okay with turnaround/change management type of things.
And without that piece that they think they can plug in a technology, it's like an operating system. You don't just plug in an operating system and say, “Hey, everybody go figure it out.” You actually train people into it. You train the super users, you train the end users, you train the trainers, you train everybody. You do a lot of webinars and stuff like that. And I think that anybody who doesn't have that comprehensive strategy will fail on some of that stuff.
Troy Johnston
Agreed, I've seen very similar things in our space. So two things: being outcome-driven is really critical. You know, why are you doing this? Are you sure you know, have you done diligence on that? So once that's in agreement from a theory perspective, can I implement this portfolio-wide? Is it flexible so they sell an asset, right, or acquire a bunch of others? Can I implement it across assets easily? Hence, back to integrations and flexibility. And also the human element I think is really underdone. We always focus on the technology, you know. I know I do a lot, and customers do to a degree as well, but it's a human element, right?
Who is the technology actually touching and what are the implications and the impact? So for me, doing multiple implementations over the years, focusing on the human element is really critical. You take commercial real estate, take a tenant manager, you know. Make them a product champion or a solution champion, echo that down through a tenant stack.
That to me is one of the most successful things, and implementing things in waves. A lot of people got a shiny new toy. They want to turn it on and have it go bang 0 to 100. I would focus on the opposite. I would just incrementally implement it.
Thru Shivakumar
Yeah, I just would do 0 to 1 or 0 to 10, 10 to 20, versus 1, 2, 3.
We've seen a lot of people go into implementing technology, really scared to change a building or do anything like that. So I would just say when you're trying to do something from a pilot perspective, think about multiple use cases in multiple buildings, not the entire thing in one shot. I agree with that. But I do think that you have to give it a bigger shot.
Matt Winn
About the users and all of them are human — that goes back to the human experience, so it makes a ton of sense. Final question, and it's a very broad one. Thru, I'll start with you. What did we not talk about that we should have? Any other nuggets of insight you'd like to share with us?
Thru Shivakumar
We never talked about AI, so I think that there is a big … so with all the data, the data exists in the industry, right? I think that the normalization, the structuring of the data and the use of it and how do you make decisions from it is still kind of in its infancy.
Then I think taking that and going predictive. Right. So then how do you use that predictive capability to then bring that back into business decision-making? How can you then predict energy usage and sustainability initiatives? How do you look at labor? How do you staff buildings accordingly based on how many people are coming into it? I think it's going to be a huge trend going into how buildings are used.
Matt Winn
Absolutely. I was wondering, Troy, same question to you. Anything that we should have talked about that we didn't?
Troy Johnston
I think we've covered it all, to be honest. I mean, I think the generational things are a really big thing that's often overlooked. Like I said, we deal with decision-makers, you know, in the C-suite these days that are of a certain demographic or age, if you like, and we're not looking down the track far enough, and I think we hit that.
So it's up to people to go do their research and have that long-term strategic view as opposed to the day-to-day tactical things we deal with.
Matt Winn
Very good. Very good. And final question for Thru. This is only for you — and thank you again for joining us. Anything going on at Cohesion that you'd like to plug or talk about?
Thru Shivakumar
Well, I mentioned AI, so stay tuned. Love it. Season three, back-to-back. Awesome.
Matt Winn
Well, thank you both so very much. Lots of excellent stuff, lots of great information, and no better way to end today's podcast. So thank you all so much.
Thanks to our experts Thru and Troy for sharing your expertise and perspective on this topic. It's been a true pleasure and always good to have you all in the studio. So come back anytime, please.
And as always, an even bigger thanks to you for joining us for this episode. We really do enjoy creating this podcast, and I hope you equally enjoy listening. And while you're with us, be sure to subscribe to HID Connects. Doing so will ensure that you stay connected and not miss future episodes. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. While you’re subscribing, make sure you rate and review our podcast, and check us out on social.
And in the spirit of connection, we're always looking for new topic ideas. So send us your questions and thoughts for future episodes. All you have to do is drop me a line at [email protected]. So until our next episode, thanks again for listening. May your identities forever be secure.